Curse

Daesu · Jan 18, 2011, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Interesting, I usually put the MM in front so that melee minions would move forward and tank the enemies while casters stay in the back lines. My rits tend to stay behind also because spirits have longbow range. I should try out new battle formations.

ensoriki · Jan 18, 2011, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Question about the whole hero AI and what not.
Ranger AI is fine is it not? I've been using BHA to get my ass out of trouble time and time again.

m i L e s · Jan 18, 2011, 03:50 AM // 03:50

well when the 7 hero parties come out, i wouldnt want to run the meta.... rits, necros, mezzies..... i would want to mix things up and try random builds for the fun of it.
for example i was thinkin,
some crit scythe sin heros, earthshaker, barrage rangers maybe? who knows

Daesu · Jan 18, 2011, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by m i L e s

some crit scythe sin heros, earthshaker, barrage rangers maybe? who knows

In this context, I hope they would fix the melee AI soon. I would really love to use some buffed up melee heroes.

Xenomortis · Jan 18, 2011, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by m i L e s

well when the 7 hero parties come out, i wouldnt want to run the meta.... rits, necros, mezzies..... i would want to mix things up and try random builds for the fun of it.
for example i was thinkin,
some crit scythe sin heros, earthshaker, barrage rangers maybe? who knows

That's all very well, until you want to be doing well.
The current skill set, AI limitations and PvE dynamics basically mean that Rits, Necs and Mesmers come out on top for H/Hing (or when using 7 heroes (going to need a new abbreviation

)).
That said, with 7 heroes a lot more is opened up and with a proper understanding and some creativity you can make room for quite a lot. Certainly Elementalists have a place and Monks can be used if you build correctly.
I have some ideas for Rangers and Paragons; for example, I have this drafted up for my Ranger, a character I never use in PvE currently - I can identify some problems with it and it needs improving and some things are quite questionable, but it's something I would like to toy around with at least.
But melee heores? I don't think I could ever trust the AI to be good at melee.

m i L e s · Jan 18, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

That's all very well, until you want to be doing well.
The current skill set, AI limitations and PvE dynamics basically mean that Rits, Necs and Mesmers come out on top for H/Hing

Yeah i realize that, i just want to switch it up and not use the normal stuff.... i could care less if i die doing it, i just want to find builds that work well that are out of the ordinary.

Chthon · Jan 18, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

That's all very well, until you want to be doing well.
The current skill set, AI limitations and PvE dynamics basically mean that Rits, Necs and Mesmers come out on top for H/Hing

Hopefully the promised revision to melee AI fixes this.

Quote:

(or when using 7 heroes (going to need a new abbreviation

)).

I nominate "7H."

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 18, 2011, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I'll be running Crit Scythers regardless of a melee fix or not. When you hit for 300 damage a pop, PBAoE, with Knockdown spam, you don't have to worry about stupid AI.

m i L e s · Jan 19, 2011, 03:41 AM // 03:41

my point exactly haha, crit scythers are awesome, especially on heros cause they just roll enemies. also helps to have an OotV or some melee buffers in your group. but mainly they are just fun to have in your party

NerfHerder · Jan 19, 2011, 06:48 AM // 06:48

You guys do know that Heros cant use PvE skills right?

Roen · Jan 19, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

You guys do know that Heros cant use PvE skills right?

Yes. Which is why my LocoLadyWay build has my toon using /W just for "SY!"

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 19, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Yes, we know. I posted the build a few pages back. Those Critscythers hit for 300+. I'm more concerned about when people are going to figure out that VoS boosts +damage as well.

NerfHerder · Jan 19, 2011, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I tested out those VoS builds. I get more damage from a Soldiers Stance Derv, and a WotA Dagger Spam Sin. I couldnt tell much of a difference in general PvE stuff, and at MoD they all did around 50 DPS. You dont get nearly that in PvE, due to Melee Hero AI/Pathing issues(aggro says "Hi"). IMO, even though a Hero spear chucker doesnt have nearly the damage potential of a melee hero, the damage is more consistant in your typical PvE scenerio. Making a spear chucker hero a better choice. That being said, I still think its fun to use melee heros, even though they suck.

AndrewSX · Jan 19, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

IMHO, if something sucks (not so much to be useless, but enough to be out of the commmon meta-game) its fun to use.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 19, 2011, 10:25 PM // 22:25

@NerfHerder: Did you take into account all the buffs (SoH, GDW, OoP)?

While DPS is important, it's the (repeat) burst that I was looking to emphasis. Regardless, when the 7H update comes out, I'll make sure to test all the options. All we can really do atm is theory craft.

Xenomortis · Jan 19, 2011, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Yes, we know. I posted the build a few pages back. Those Critscythers hit for 300+. I'm more concerned about when people are going to figure out that VoS boosts +damage as well.

Some fairly simple maths says they don't hit for 300+.

Kunder · Jan 20, 2011, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Some fairly simple maths says they don't hit for 300+.

41 base damage * 1.41 (critical modifer) * 1.2 (customized) * 1.15 (15^50 mod) * 1.74 (AoHM) = 138 critical hit. Then this gets multiplied by 1.75 for Asuran Scan to give us 241 damage. This is before buffs such as EBSoH/SoH/Splinter Weapon/GDW/Actually using attack skills. Just considering SoH (@ +20, which is reasonably normal) and GDW, we get a final damage of 241 + (20 + 20) * 1.75 = 311 base damage.

Of course, given enemy base armor is probably around 80-90 (thank god for holy damage!) in any area worth playing, this gets cut down to around 200 base damage per strike. Still respectably high. Judge's Insight can partially avert this problem of course, probably bringing you back to around 250ish damage per hit.

As far as VoS Sins, no conditions sucks bad. Critical Scythe already precludes the usage of SY, the only other readily usable (-abusable) way to lower enemy damage to manageable levels are conditions. Past that the only thing you really have in your favour are things like ST rits and Aegis webs which are flimsy and not all that reliable without supporting factors. Then of course factor in that it requires a bit harsher attribute split and you don't have on-demand deep wound application any more. VoS Sin might kill an enemy in one or two strokes less, not a big deal when compared to the downsides.

Xenomortis · Jan 20, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

41 base damage * 1.41 (critical modifer) * 1.2 (customized) * 1.15 (15^50 mod) * 1.74 (AoHM) = 138 critical hit. Then this gets multiplied by 1.75 for Asuran Scan to give us 241 damage.

Let me know when heroes get Asuran Scan and Aura of Holy Might.

Edit: For easier reference, this is the build setup in question: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...archid=5187152

Kunder · Jan 20, 2011, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenomortis

let me know when heroes get asuran scan and aura of holy might.

Edit: For easier reference, this is the build setup in question: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...archid=5187152

doh!

thetwistedboy · Jan 20, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

41 base damage * 1.41 (critical modifer) * 1.2 (customized) * 1.15 (15^50 mod) * 1.74 (AoHM) = 138 critical hit. Then this gets multiplied by 1.75 for Asuran Scan to give us 241 damage. This is before buffs such as EBSoH/SoH/Splinter Weapon/GDW/Actually using attack skills. Just considering SoH (@ +20, which is reasonably normal) and GDW, we get a final damage of 241 + (20 + 20) * 1.75 = 311 base damage.

Of course, given enemy base armor is probably around 80-90 (thank god for holy damage!) in any area worth playing, this gets cut down to around 200 base damage per strike. Still respectably high. Judge's Insight can partially avert this problem of course, probably bringing you back to around 250ish damage per hit.

As far as VoS Sins, no conditions sucks bad. Critical Scythe already precludes the usage of SY, the only other readily usable (-abusable) way to lower enemy damage to manageable levels are conditions. Past that the only thing you really have in your favour are things like ST rits and Aegis webs which are flimsy and not all that reliable without supporting factors. Then of course factor in that it requires a bit harsher attribute split and you don't have on-demand deep wound application any more. VoS Sin might kill an enemy in one or two strokes less, not a big deal when compared to the downsides.

they're talking about heroes